EQ AT WORK, EQ AT HOME - Don’t miss this engaging conversation! Tyler swaps provocative questions and thoughtful answers with guest Whitney Johnson: author, speaker, trainer, coach, disrupter & EQ master. Whitney Johnson is the CEO of human capital consultancy Disruption Advisors, an Inc. 5000 2020 fastest-growing private company in America. One of the fifty leading business thinkers in the world (#14) as named by Thinkers50, Whitney and her team are expert at helping people grow their people to grow their organization. She was a LinkedIn Top Voice in 2020, and hosts the weekly Disrupt Yourself podcast. Little known fact: She is obsessed with K dramas. https://whitneyjohnson.com/ Follow The 5-Star Approach on: • LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-5-star-approach • Facebook https://www.facebook.com/5starapproach • Instagram https://www.instagram.com/5starapproach/
with Tyler Small
When you've got that sense of self around what's important, not only for you, but for other people, you're willing to push people to go do something new because you know that that is what is going to make them grow. And even if, in the short term, it might be painful for you or for them, longer term they're going to be happier.
Tyler Small: Hey everyone. Today we have a very special guest - someone I've known for a bit, and I'm so excited to introduce her. Whitney Johnson is the CEO of a boutique consultancy, WLJ Advisors, and one of the 50 leading business thinkers in the world as named by Thinkers 50. An expert on helping high-growth organizations develop high-growth individuals.
Whitney is an award-winning author; world-class keynote speaker; frequent lecturer for Harvard Business School's Executive Education; and an executive coach and advisor to CEOs.
So thank you for joining us, Whitney.
Whitney Johnson: Tyler, I'm delighted to be here.
Tyler Small: It's so wonderful to have you. I wanted to tell our listeners how I first met you. It was because you were coaching the President of WGU - the President of Western Governors University, Scott Pulsifer - when I worked there. And we wanted to disseminate some of your great coaching through the organization. So our learning and development team had the opportunity to spend a couple of days in a conference room with you trying to soak it all in. And it was an amazing experience. And that's when you became a person who I really looked up to.
Whitney Johnson: Aww, thank you.
Tyler Small: Thank you. Um, and I, I loved WGU so much. When I read your book, Disrupt Yourself, I decided it was time for me to disrupt myself and to head out on my next adventure. And it was, it was a major game changer for me personally. Not surprisingly, I suppose. And it's been on my mind recently, just the upside gains for a more adventurous, challenging path. And I'd say it, it's paid off abundantly ever since.
Whitney Johnson: Hmm. Isn't that exciting. And yet, from what you just said, it sounds like initially it was hard to make that decision to disrupt yourself. But now that you have, you can't believe you even considered not doing it. Is that what you're saying?
Tyler Small: Yes! Yes. And, uh, before we started recording, you were saying how, how much fun - you remember training that group and how much fun it was. We had a great team. We had a really cohesive team. We were really close and we had been through a lot. I loved that team and our leader, Evan Pincus. He was a fantastic person to work for a great coach himself. And it was, it was a really tough decision to leave, to move on.
Whitney Johnson: And I think, you know, it's interesting to me. I love that because, I think we want it to be that way. We want to be in a place where we love what we're doing. And yet we know that if we're going to keep growing, we do need to disrupt ourselves. And sometimes we're going to get pushed and we're just forced to disrupt ourselves. But I love it when we have to make that choice and we get to make that choice, and that you got to make that choice of having two really good things to do. But you said, I need to go do this because if I don't, I will die inside a little. And now you're more alive than ever, it sounds like.
Tyler Small: I am. I am. I really went in pursuit of some dreams, and I've been able to see those dreams come true. And there's still more that I dream of. But it's been really amazing to follow a vein of my career. You know, focusing on relationships, and bringing in deliberate practice into a model that I've been able to develop since I've left. And really to shine in that way and to have a huge impact.
So Whitney, I have some questions for you today.
Whitney Johnson: Yes? I have questions for you too, but I will try to refrain. Or maybe not.
Tyler Small: Well, um, ask away. Why don't you give me a question, and then I will start on your list.
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. So one of the things I find myself really curious about since you started, you know, how we connected as you read Disrupt Yourself, and we were part of this training at WGU is: How did you know what you wanted to do next? And I think it's really interesting that you've found yourself drawn to this practice of helping to resolve disagreement, and to negotiate, and to find agreement. And I'm just really curious how you discovered that that was something that you wanted and needed to - you know, a sense of calling that you wanted to devote yourself to that.
Tyler Small: Yeah. Um, I think it started... So in, in 2009, I had the opportunity to have a mentor. He was the leader of this worldwide learning organization of millions of people. And he shared this book with me called Talent Is Overrated. And I read some similar books, but it basically talked about the research of K. Anders Ericsson and deliberate practice. And I thought, man, this is really interesting. And I kind of stuck that in my pocket, hoping that I could, you know, figure out how to apply that tool later.
Then years later at WGU, I had the opportunity to design a leadership development program. And it was for leaders, it was a coaching program. So I was coaching leaders and, and facilitating and teaching others to, to coach with this specific method. And I was able to incorporate that deliberate practice. And we still had this model that in an organization, when you're learning soft skills or when you're learning leadership skills - It's basically you, in order to get feedback, you have to have a, an institutional survey and you have to be told what the results are and stuff.
And so what I did is I, I had this idea to help people do their own deliberate practice and get their own feedback, even when there was a low trust situation. So I, I maneuvered some, uh, some ways to do that. Some specific questions that people could ask in order to get the feedback in a, in a regular basis; and even to get quantitative feedback. I invented something called the Ultimate Relationship Question.
So, I started to really focus on things after that in terms of relationships and building relationships and helping people. And that's what my books have focused on for the most part is helping people to build what I call 5-Star Relationships. And it just drives me. I have this personal goal to catalyze a million 5-Star Relationships.
So the conflict resolution part then came when... conflict is basically the opposite of, you know, building the relationships. Like, okay, it's, it's the opposing force, the opposing factor. And, um, you know, some conflict can be great. In most cases, I think I'm helping people to... I'm teaching them how to, how to negotiate conflict. And in some cases it's a little more thrilling it, a little more lucrative sometimes: I'm doing the relationship building for them, on their behalf. And I'm using those, those principles that I'm teaching - I'm typically coaching people to do - I'm doing them myself. And then negotiating with, with either side when like the relationship is done and over, and, you know, "gone" kind of thing. To help clean up the mess. Sometimes it's a big conflict after a relationship is over.
But I it's this rush for me. I think it's like the leading edge of like, oh man. Wow! That's a difficult relationship scenario. How do you do that? You know? So this conflict resolution has become, I think, part of what I do and it's, it's just, I think it utilizes all of my skills and puts me in the hot seat to do what I've, you know, what I've been working on for so long. And I really love it.
Whitney Johnson: So Tyler, I have a question. Have you, um, on this podcast told people before why you're so interested in this topic - like the, the origin story or the crucible moment? Have you shared that before? 'Cause if you haven't, I would love to hear it. And if you have maybe direct people on the podcast who are listening to that, that story, that origin story, 'cause I find myself a really curious.
Tyler Small: You mean, like more about what I just said or more specifically like the moment of...
Whitney Johnson: Why. Yeah, like why? I mean, we all have things that we were like, okay, I need to do this. This is important to me. And so you said, I want to build a million 5-Star Relationships. You've spent all this time, all this energy, figuring out a way for people to unravel a dysfunctional, disharmonious relationship. And usually I find, in my experience and with people generally, is there's some experience or two or three that animates that; that you feel like, okay, this thing happened and because this thing happened, that's why I feel called to do it. It doesn't just come out of nowhere.
And I just wondered, have you shared that before on the podcast?
Tyler Small: I think I have. I definitely think it could deserve more attention. I'll give you the 20-second version.
Whitney Johnson: And then direct people to the episode so they can go back and listen.
Tyler Small: Yeah. So the first 10 episodes go over kind of my origin story.
Whitney Johnson: Yup.
Tyler Small: And, the 20-second version of it was that I was extremely deficient in social skills. I think many people would rank me as fully autistic and, and so I had to learn how to do everything, like, mechanically - from like a manual.
I mentioned when we were, before we started recording, I don't develop routines easily. And so I have, I have checklists. And so I've had to develop social skills in a way that's extremely deliberate. I think that's, um, it's, it's been a huge deficiency in terms of my early career and mistakes I've made and flops I've had. And at the same time, because I've had to basically learn social skills - like in a deliberate, mechanical way - I now understand the nuances of social situations and emotional intelligence in a very visual, quantitative, like nuts and bolts way. And so I can pick apart pretty much any situation and help a person to see what's going on and to make it visual and put words to it and, and describe and help them see it and work through it much better.
Whitney Johnson: That is so interesting. And so now, as you're saying that, um, and I think this will be a really fun segue to, I know the questions that you wanted to ask me. Um, but before we do that... So I had on my podcast a couple months ago, um, Ted Brodkin and Ashley Pallathra who wrote a book called... It's about attunement. Um, I can't remember the name of it. But the point is is that they studied people with autism.
Tyler Small: Oh...
Whitney Johnson: And it was a study of people with autism that led them to all these conclusions on how do you attune with someone else. And so I think that could potentially be an interesting conversation for you to have on your podcast, given that you, you have been deliberate about developing these skills of being able to, um, put together a relationship that has unraveled - to ravel it back together. So that's the first thing.
And then the second thing that was interesting when you just said that is, I just had on my podcast, a woman named Erica Dhawan who wrote a book called Digital Body Language. She's an immigrant to United States. She's a kid, you know, her parents, she's trying to decode everything that's going on around for and had to, you know, was watching her classmates, watching her parents, um, decoding things. And so ended up being very deliberate and thinking about digital body language. And so it's just really interesting how those two experiences really map to the experience that you had. And because you weren't skilled at the social piece of it, the emotional skills, you become an expert in it because you know how to diagram it in a way that people who've done it intuitively do not. Which goes to the questions you were going to ask me.
Tyler Small: True.
Whitney Johnson: So I think that's really interesting. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
Tyler Small: I'm fascinated, and I'm definitely gonna read both of those books. What was, what'd you say the author was that the first one?
Whitney Johnson: Um, you know what, I'm going to find it just a second. I think that's easier. And also, listen to the podcast, but, um...
Tyler Small: Yeah.
Whitney Johnson: Missing Each Other. That's the name of it. And it's podcast episode 124. But the name of the book is Missing Each Other.
Tyler Small: Oh, awesome. I'm going to listen to that. And I'm going to track down both those books.
Whitney Johnson: You should get them. I would get both of them to come on your podcast, actually. 'Cause I think it's, it's really, it would be super interesting to have them drill down on this topic through their lens. Cause it, it it's, it maps to, but isn't um, you know, too duplicative of what you do at least from what you've just told me.
Tyler Small: Very cool. I will definitely seek them out. That is a great reference. Thank you.
Whitney Johnson: Uh-huh.
Tyler Small: So ready for my first question?
Whitney Johnson: Yes, I am!
Tyler Small: These are amazing questions you, you've asked. I feel like the dialogue has been so rich already with these questions that you had for me. Thank you.
Whitney Johnson: Oh, you're welcome.
Tyler Small: Okay. So my first question is that you've had this extremely successful career. It seems like you just put your heart and soul into things. And you've aimed high and you've really achieved rock star status in multiple categories. And they're nearly 2 million people following you on LinkedIn. And, I was just really curious: how has emotional intelligence played a role in your career?
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. So, so the reason I think this is so intriguing. Um, the, the preamble to this is that I think that I haven't had to analyze how to do it. I think it's just been something somewhat innate that I picked up on of, like, trying to understand what was going on around me and just being aware of it. And so, um, I think that the question that I've had to ask myself is: How do I take my awareness of what's going on and be able to develop relationships with people, but not be overly influenced by the fact that I'm aware of what's going on. You know, because I am aware, I know I can sense, like, what's this person feeling; and what's that person feeling; and what's this person thinking? And that makes it sometimes more complicated to be able to just navigate the world because I'm almost hyper-aware of what else is happening with people around me. And so that's, um, that's been an interesting challenge for me is, like, how do I figure out how to manage that? So I throw that out there.
Now to your question, though, on this specific question is I think, you know, if you look at something like podcasting, where emotional intelligence and being able to have a conversation and build a relationship, basically, real-time - what you and I are having, this experience right now.
I've podcasted for, like, four years. And it's this ability to be able to ask a question, be present when someone's talking to you, try to understand, you know, what they're saying, and being deeply, deeply curious about that person. Um, so, you know, that's one way that it shows up. Another, is that like, if I'm writing something - whether it's writing a piece, writing a book, whether it's giving a speech - is to ask myself, okay, well, this isn't for me. Like, how can I make this useful for the people that I'm talking to or writing to? How do I share enough of myself that people feel connected and not distant from me; but then also, once I've shared some of myself, then... and I think about that a lot with my newsletter, is how do I show enough that people feel like we're together, we're sort of on the same side of the table; but still be willing to try to think about, well, what's the experience the other person's having.
So it's not just like: Hey, these 10 things happened to me, you know, this week. And it's like, TMI! Oh boy, I don't want to know more. No, it's, here's the experience that I'm having. I'm sharing a little bit of myself, but now how can I universalize this or generalize it so that we're now having a conversation, even though it's very asymmetrical.
Tyler Small: That's amazing. The first part of what you said kind of struck me, because for me having the ability to relate to people and to be able to really understand and empathize - that's relatively new in my lifetime, right. Like, and so that, that, um, that challenge you said of, of your hyper awareness sometimes of the way other people were feeling and thinking. And choosing not to be swayed too much, to an unnatural way. Or to throw you off or to throw, throw you off from your, your purpose. That seems to be an amazing tip for me personally, because before I didn't have, I never had that problem 'cause I wasn't aware.
Whitney Johnson: Right. And it's interesting, you know... Someone asked me once they're they're like, so do you think introverts or extroverts are better at disruption - you know, personal disruption? And my comment was, I think actually introverts are. And you know, to your point, if you're not aware of what's going on around you, and therefore at some level don't care, then it's easier for you to listen to your internal compass. And so it's just fun to think about the flip side, right? So you're right. You have to go out and be deliberate. You have to figure out the social skills. At the same time, because you're not aware, you were able to be very, very clear on what you wanted, how you were thinking about the world and processing things internally. And now you've got to go out and figure out how to navigate that. But I think it probably gives people, at least initially, potentially a better sense of self. That's my hypothesis. That's my fantasy, anyway - not being in your shoes.
Tyler Small: Very interesting. Yeah. .. 'Cause I'm thinking about this, and it seems like both could be more or less, like, intuitive about picking up on people's feelings. And then I guess I think about introversion and extroversion being more of an expressive thing, like how expressive are they? Versus how susceptible they are to other people's feelings.
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. I understand it in that someone who's maybe more introverted is more focused on - like they recharge internally; and extroverts recharge by being around people. Like they get energy from being with people. And so that's at least that's how I think about it.
Tyler Small: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. There's so many different dimensions to humans.
Whitney Johnson: Yes, there are.
Tyler Small: Well, thank you for that. My next question - and maybe this is a moot point - but can you tell us about a time when you had an emotional intelligence flop, and how you recovered from it? I don't know if you've had a major flop because you are so aware...
Whitney Johnson: Yeah, no, I totally have. Um, so, uh, in fact I was thinking about this, like, all the time yesterday. An hour ago. I mean, a little bit of hyperbole, but... So I don't know if this is exactly what you're asking, but it's, it's what came to my mind. So I thought I would share it is, I was thinking about not too long ago...
So we have two children. They're both college age. And not too long ago, our oldest child said something that actually hurt my feelings. I asked him a question, and his response was he made me feel,like, dumb. Or dismissive of my, what I was thinking or my opinion. And I remember feeling like really bad about it. And, you know, I said something, and he didn't really quite know what to do with it. And he's like, okay, you know, I apologize. Let's move on. I was like, okay, I need to probably let this go. I need to forgive him because you know, he's my son and I'm supposed to be more mature. But here was the flop, and here's what I learned.
I realized that in that moment where I was feeling like my feelings were hurt and he had been dismissive of me, that I actually sometimes do that to other people. And so the flop was, is that I felt bad and I was being critical of how he had behaved in that moment. And it was also this idea of boundaries; of sometimes the things that hurt our feelings, and we feel like other people are not being emotionally intelligent with us - that in fact, that is probably a place where I'm not emotionally intelligent with other people. And that there are times when, because of how
I look at someone or how I respond to them or how I might be dismissive of them, that I have made them feel dumb or disregarded. And so the flop is that sometimes when our feelings get hurt, take a closer look. Because it might very well be that that is the very place that you are hurting other people's feelings.
Tyler Small: That's definitely something to take into, to any interaction where we feel like there's a strain... 'cause that could be pretty, uh, far reaching in application.
Whitney Johnson: I told you I liked these questions!
Tyler Small: Well, thank you for that. I think that I have some thinking to do on, uh, on, uh, on your response and, and I'm grateful for it. And I think, I think there's a lot of value there. I'm going to think through that in several of my different relationships.
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. Well, and I think about the work that you do, right?
You know, what you just said is you're resolving a conflict. If, if you are talking to someone - you know, I'm just riffing here - and they're like, well, my feelings were hurt; they offended me. If you can get them to the place of like, well, is it possible that, that thing that you're aware of, that you do it with other people? Like, it ends up being this huge opportunity, at least I'm finding for personal growth.
Tyler Small: Yeah. It's like, it takes a step further. So, I think something I told someone I was coaching yesterday was, when they were offended, I said, well, you can choose how to do that reaction. That's, that's up to you. I think what you're saying goes a step further and says, well, why might they be acting in this way? What might have you said or did that propelled that kind of response.
Whitney Johnson: Right? Right. And when do I sometimes do this to other people - this very thing that they just did to me?
Tyler Small: Yeah. Brilliant.
So next question: How can emotional intelligence help someone trying to figure out their next career move? And I'm thinking about your book, Disrupt Yourself. How can emotional intelligence help us.
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. When I'm thinking about this conversation that we're having of emotional intelligence, the metaphor that's in my brain, that's helping me think about this, is like: How do I put myself in this other person's shoes in this moment?
And so if I'm thinking about emotional intelligence and career moves. In my world, I have a framework called the S Curve of Learning framework that basically says every single person is on an S Curve of learning. We can be on multiple S Curves. But when I want to make a career move, I'm saying I'm on this S Curve, and I started at the bottom and I climbed to the top and now I'm ready to do something new. I want to jump to a new S Curve. It's time for me to do something different. When I decide that I want to do that, I'm not on my own. There are other stakeholders involved. It might be that there is a boss, for example - that you go to your boss and you say, Hey, I want to go do something new.
Well, when I say to my boss, I want to do something new - I want to jump to a new S Curve - I need to be very aware that there are all sorts of reasons why they don't want me to jump to a new S Curve, if I'm a strong performer. 'Cause they're on their own S Curve. And so one of the things that you want to do is say: Okay, I'm here, and I think it makes sense for me to go do this new thing for these three reasons. But the emotional intelligence piece is for you to start thinking, why does it make sense for your boss for you to go do something new? How are you going to make it safe for your boss for you to do something new? You're going to go do something somewhere else. That means there are jobs that need to get done that won't get done. So they now have to hire someone. Maybe they don't have a budget to hire someone. There are all sorts of things that they've got to figure out.
And so when you're making a career move, you look at who your various stakeholders are. And then if it's your boss - or someone you're trying to get to hire you, right? They're like, why should I hire you? You're kind of risky. Like, you've never done this before. What you're doing is you pack a parachute for that person. And so the emotional intelligence says, what do I need to do and say, and provide to this person so that it will feel safe for them. So I will de-risk it for them. They're either letting me go do something new or they're hiring me when I'm not necessarily fit into the mold. And so I'm on an S Curve. I want to jump to a new S Curve. I make it safe for that person, whose S Curve I want to jump to, to do it; and I pack a parachute.
And that's where the emotional intelligence comes in, because I'm not thinking about what I want. I'm thinking about what are the concerns, the needs of this other person. I'm packing a parachute for them. So that they're like, okay, yeah, great. Go ahead and jump. I'm good with that. And in fact, I'm willing to jump with you as well. 'Cause that's effectively what's happening is when you get a new job and someone hires you, it's not just you jumping to a new learning curve. They are as well. So you pack that parachute for them. And that requires emotional intelligence to be able to pack that parachute.
Tyler Small: Oh my goodness. This is, this is, like, the in-between lines. You, you probably said this in the book, but I just didn't, I didn't capture it in my memory, but wow. What strong advice of how to bring the right people with you and prepare your landing. I'm really impressed. Like I can, I can see that in your career, because when I look at your career path, I'm thinking, oh my goodness, how did she do that? Like, that's amazing. How does she go from this to that? And then this, uh, and I am just really impressed. So that, that makes a lot of sense now. That uh, shows how you've been able to link those things together and how others can as well. I appreciate that.
And my next question: I think a lot of these questions, you know, I'm asking from, uh, you know, from a workplace, a job perspective, but I wanted to split this one into two pieces, if I could. The question is how can emotional intelligence help someone who is building an A-Team? I know part of building a team is like attracting and hiring; and then part of it is developing once they're on the team. I wanted to put that workplace question as part A.
And part B: Building a team, a lot of us have a family or a friend group that we want to build an A Team with. I wanted to get a little bit of advice from you as well on how we can build an A Team as a family, or as a friend group - when we can't necessarily swap out the players as easily.
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. You know, it's, it's so interesting. Let's do the family piece first; and this builds actually on the prior question that you asked me, because if you think about it, like, if you decide... So, are you married?
Tyler Small: Yes, and I have five children.
Whitney Johnson: ... And you have five children. Okay. So thinking about when you made that decision to leave WGU and to go out on your own and to become an entrepreneur, you wanted to jump to a new S Curve. You were becoming an entrepreneur. So basically, the most important person for you to persuade in all of this was your wife. You were basically saying, Hey honey, let's jump to a new S Curve.
And so I think that that is something really important to consider is like, how are you going to, de-risk it for your significant other, your partner, your spouse, your husband, your wife, whoever it is. And so that's one element of this that's really important that we cannot overlook. And in terms of this idea of building an A Team with the people around you, it's a recognition of understanding, you know, where is this person in their growth?
So for example, are they at the launch point of that growth curve, where they're trying to do things that are brand new and they're trying to figure it out. And if they are, then what they really need from you is they need a lot of support of just saying, you know, you can do this, you'll figure it out. I, you know, I love you. I care about you. I support you. Go figure it out. And you know, I think if you look at your own trajectory, when you first made this decision to leave WGU, you had a lot of that from your wife. She's like, I know you don't have it figured out, but I know that you'll be able to figure it out.
And then with your family members - and you do this with your children all the time - with your family members as well, once you move into that sweet spot of that S Curve, this is a place where things are going really fast. You're really effective. You're feeling competent, confident. And what people need from you then from an emotional standpoint is they need you to help them focus in the sense of helping them prioritize; of like, okay, honey, I know you just took on your 20th client. I think that might be too much, because you're not focusing on these other things as well.
So when you're in the sweet spot, you're going to have more and more and more opportunities. And what you need from the people around you... And if you have children in high school, like they want to do 20 million things. You're like, probably a good idea to focus. So that's what people need in the sweet spot, from an emotional perspective.
And then when they get to the high end or they're in mastery on the S Curve, um, from a family perspective, sometimes I need to say, you know, maybe it could have been where you were at WGU when you were like, oh, I want to do something. I'm kind of bored. (I know this isn't the case - But like, if you had been...) I'm kind of bored. And your wife's like, would you do something already? You know... and this is sometimes why I think people lose their jobs, why they get laid off; because they are at the top of that S Curve, or they are on the wrong curve and they won't go, 'cause they're just a little bit too timid. And so their universe just gives them a nudge so that they'll jump or so they'll move off and get back into that launch point so that growth cycle can start all over again. And so with people, you know, in your family, Um, it's about, you know, support, focus and challenge.
I think what I would say from a relationship standpoint, though, is that you want to do whatever you need to do to stay in the sweet spot. Because you don't, you know, with your partner and with your children, you don't ever want to get to the point where you're like, well, that was fun. Now we're done. You want to find ways to stay in the sweet spot with them. And so you need to be continually developing and growing and progressing and, and, um, moving that forward so that you stay perpetually in the sweet spot. So that's on the relationship; and I can stop there and see if you want to comment before I go to the work piece.
Tyler Small: Well, I love that. I just had a followup question to probe a little further - like, I guess I remember when I was reading the book Building An A Team, I had that thought like, oh, well, is that why some people split up, divorce their spouse or whatever; end a long-term relationship because they, they feel like that they're getting to the top of their S Curve and their spouse is not, you know, ready to jump onto the next thing or like try something new or to, you know, grow into new, new realms of life. And so I did want to ask, like, a little bit more, like, what are some good ways... So I, I married up and I, I still am like riding on the coattails of my wife, but, um, for, for those who may feel like they're outgrowing their spouse, like, what are some good tips there?
Whitney Johnson: Yeah, it's a great question. So the, the reality is, is that sometimes people do outgrow people because the people stop growing. I don't want to say that that never happens. At the same time, I do think, you know, I've been married long enough to know that, you know, there are, there are times when you still love your partner, but you're not totally, like, this is super fun all the time. And that's where that commitment comes in of like, okay, so we do need to figure out - and maybe they're not growing as much as they did, but it might've been that there was a time when you weren't growing very fast and they were still there for you. And so it comes down to this idea of making that commitment and figuring out a way to stay in the sweet spot and, and being perpetually patient with each other.
I know for me, whenever I start to feel impatient with my husband, cause he may not be growing as fast as I would like him to on something, I remind myself - and I think this is an important thing for us to think about - sometimes they're not growing as fast. But they're not growing as fast is what's making it possible for you to grow fast. And then sometimes, um, they're growing fast, you're growing more slowly, and that's making it possible for them. And so I try to really keep that in mind as well, is that, you know, it might be that some of what I'm doing - and I think this is true for a lot of people - is just like, make sure you're really getting the whole picture, like the whole picture. What is possible for you because your spouse or your partner is exactly the way that they are.
Tyler Small: Oh yeah. Wow. That's beautiful. I appreciate that kind of zooming out a little bit and looking at the dynamics of what's being allowed to happen. That's cool.
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. So one other thought on that, I mean, we've all met people - you know, a married couple, right - you know, and we're like, that person, the husband's so nice. And they're like, and the wife isn't very nice. And so you kind of have to step back and be like, okay, but what is the wife doing that makes it possible for the husband to be so nice? Like, I just think it's interesting. And looking at that dynamic, there's this whole system that's going on and you really want to look at the whole piece of it.
Tyler Small: Ah, very cool. Very cool. And then you were going to talk about the...
Whitney Johnson: The workplace. Yeah.
Tyler Small: Yes.
Whitney Johnson: So I think from a manager perspective, it is different where you're really saying to yourself, okay, this person is coming to work with me. And if I'm a manager, to expect that they are going to probably be here for a time. Um, it could be two years. It could be three years. It could be four years. And so the emotional intelligence piece is just saying, all right, well, if they're at the launch point, they need support from me, they need encouragement; so I've kind of gone through this already. And the sweet spot, what they need is they need me to help them focus. And in mastery, they need, need me and me to give them a challenge. And the emotionally intelligent piece of it is to say to yourself, okay, they need a challenge. So what does that look like? Does a challenge mean I give them something that pushes them back down into the sweet spot? Does the challenge mean that they go do something new inside of our organization? Does the challenge mean they go do something new somewhere outside of the organization? And the emotionally intelligence piece is that willingness to allow them to go do that.
I don't know that that's how you're thinking about it, but it is for me. Because when you've got that sense of self around what's important, not only for you, but for other people, you're willing and actually oftentimes are going to push people to go do something new because you know that that is what is going to make them grow. And even if it, in the short term, it might be painful for you or for them, 'cause you push them, longer term, they're going to be happier. And, and so again, you're thinking about what are the needs of that person, not just your own.
Tyler Small: So, what you just said reminds me of the situation I was in when I was leaving WGU. I remember talking with my boss, Evan Pincus, and he helped me so much to gain more awareness about things and, and I had taken the quiz on the S Curve. And we talked about how from a more granular perspective, because I was nearing the top of the sweet spot; I was maybe in mastery. But we talked about how, like, yeah, like I'm off the charts in some areas, like I'm really good at. But in other areas, I'm still down in the... What's the bottom part of the S Curve called?
Whitney Johnson: The Launch Point, yeah.
Tyler Small: The Launch Point. I'm still down at the Launch Point with a lot of things. So we talked about some of those things and how I could, you know, work on those things. But then we also talked about like when, when it was time to move on, like, I think - like you said, a lot of managers, they just don't want to let their people go. And they're the best people on their team. And it's like, no way, no way I want to give you up. But Evan was so supportive of me going on to this other S Curve. And like, I think he has a really good perspective of that.
And it was a good example for me of like, oh, okay. Like, this is, this is how it's done. You know, when you, when you honestly care about someone's career development. And like, yeah, it might cause, you know, some headache for you having to hire a new person. But also, I think there's a big advantage just thinking about it, you know, selfishly from a manager's perspective, like when you help somebody move on to a new S Curve, it creates this reputation for you that like, oh, you know, the people that, that I have on my team, like they go off and they do amazing things. Like this is a, uh, a growth transition, like, like almost advertising this S Curve experience of like: Hey, on my team, like, you're going to have the opportunity to climb up this S Curve and then to, to jump to a new one, that's that's even cooler and it's, it's going to be a great opportunity.
Whitney Johnson: Yeah, right, exactly. And then you get this reputation for being a great talent developer. Absolutely. And I think, I think too, Tyler, one of the things that happens, and why it's hard for people - sometimes we have a hard time letting people go - is that if we're not in that emotionally intelligent space - and I know we're using this term very broadly right now - but you're, it feels like an attack. Like they're rejecting you. And so they don't want to go do something new; they're rejecting you. And so it's that ability to say, this has nothing to do with me. I understand they like me. I like them. This is about them wanting to grow. And this pond, the way it's currently configured, is not going to allow that. So we've got to let them go swim in a new pond.
Tyler Small: I like that. Okay. So, um, I just finished your book. And it was the first of your books, but the third book that I read - Dare Dream Do - and I loved it. Loved the stories there and they were so empowering for me personally. What advice would you give us for using emotional intelligence when dealing with a dream killer?
Whitney Johnson: Yeah, so... Here's how I think about a dream killer. When people are behaving badly - and I think this really, let's go back to the family dinner dynamic, cause I think sometimes families kill dreams as much as anyone - is when they're behaving badly, it's usually because they're afraid. Either they're afraid that they're going to lose you in some way if they go on and do things. I almost always remember watching a show called What Not To Wear, where people would go get these makeovers and they would come back, and I always wondered, like, what happens to that relationship after they come back and their hair's different and their clothes are different and they feel differently about themselves. And so I think sometimes we kill dreams because we're afraid that if they go change, like they jump to a new S Curve, they won't want to be with us anymore. I think that's one thing that happens.
Another thing that I think happens is that, um, that sometimes we do it because we're, we're jealous. Um, we're like, I want to do that, and I feel like I can't do that; so I don't want you to do that, either. And I think sometimes we do it - with children, anyway, we're afraid that they're going to get hurt; that they won't be able to accomplish what they want. And so, you know, they're not quite prepared to go try to do the thing that they want to do. And you know, they're going to get, you know, their knees going to get skinned and you're afraid for them.
I think the way we want to deal with dream killers is, sometimes we need to just walk away because it's such - they're going to kill you dead emotionally; and so you have to remove yourself from the situation. So sometimes that is appropriate. I think we've all had experiences where we had to just remove ourselves. Um, but I think, more frequently, when people are doing that, just be aware that they're doing that because they're afraid of something. And so if in that moment where you feel like they're killing your dream, just be aware of them. They're afraid. How can you reassure them? How can you bring them along? How can you make them a part of this? How can you get curious about what their concerns are so that they feel like you're bringing them along in what you're trying to do? Um, I think that that oftentimes, it will diffuse the dream killer because I think usually there's something that is unresolved or a fear that that person has. And, and, and it's hardly ever about you.
Tyler Small: Very cool. Um, that's mind expanding. So I just want to invite everyone to, to like rewind the podcast and, and play, play that again. Cause that's that's big.
As we close Whitney, you mentioned you're writing another book?
Whitney Johnson: I am.
Tyler Small: Can you please give us just a little a taste of that?
Whitney Johnson: Yeah. Well, it's not going to surprise you too much. Um, when I tell you what it's about, so it's called, Smart Growth: How To Grow Your People To Grow Your Company. And what I decided to do is... You know, my prior two books, I talked somewhat about the S Curve, but it was always kind of in the background, kind of this script running in the background. And this book is really pulling out the S Curve and using this to describe the human experience.
You know, that we all yearn to grow. We all yearn to make progress. Talking about different parts of the S Curve. And it's really focused - it's on the individual of like what it's like to be at the Launch Point: you're an explorer, a collector. You move into the Sweet Spot: you're an accelerator. And talking about that human experience, but then overlaying it with, okay. So managers, leaders, this is the experience they're having. This is experience you're having. If you'll grow your people, you can grow your company.
And so I'm just, I'm really excited about it, 'cause we're doing this deep, deep dive on the S Curve itself.
Tyler Small: Hmm. Very cool. That's exciting. And, and are you going to talk about like the growth of a company as well from that perspective?
Whitney Johnson: Well, so what we're going to do - the way it's laid out is we talk about the individual human experience. And then at the end of each chapter, we have tools for, okay. So now that we just talked about the individual experience - 'cause the fundamental unit of growth is the individual - we're going to give you tools and advice for how to think about this as a manager; how to think about it as a coach; and how to use this in planning your organization.
So we'll give people the tools that they need to be able to use this as a leader. But the, the bulk of it, the text and the narrative will be focused on the individual.
Tyler Small: Very cool. It's individuals that make up organizations.
Whitney Johnson: Yes, indeed.
Tyler Small: Very cool. Well, thank you again so much Whitney for spending the time and allowing our listeners to feast upon your wisdom.
Whitney Johnson: Oh, well, thank you, Tyler, for having me; for asking such interesting, provocative questions. It really got me to think.
Tyler Small: It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. I hope we can do this again sometime.
Thanks, Whitney. Have a great one.
Whitney Johnson: You too.
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