“I MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES” - Tyler talks with a former colleague and mentor, Evan Pincus, about Emotional Intelligence as a differentiator, and the journey of personal EQ development. Follow The 5-Star Approach on: • LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-5-star-approach • Facebook https://www.facebook.com/5starapproach • Instagram https://www.instagram.com/5starapproach/
with Tyler Small
“Find something that you can work on that's really specific. It's really hard to say, ‘I'm just going to get better’... Some people are all about focusing on their strengths. Others are focusing on their largest deficits or areas of opportunity... I say, go with both.”
Tyler Small: Hi, everybody. Today we have a very respected friend of mind and mentor, and Director of Learning and Development at Western Governors University: Evan Pincus. Welcome Evan!
Evan Pincus: Thanks, Tyler. Great to be here.
Tyler Small: So excited to have you. Today, we'll be discussing his emotional intelligence journey as well as how he's helping thousands of others.
And first, let me introduce Evan. So Evan started his career as a Solitude Resort ski instructor and rescuer. And he gradually shifted into a learning development role as he finished his master's degree in industrial psychology from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. And then Evan has worked for several large multinational organizations leading their learning and development functions. Evan currently leads the learning and development team at Western Governors University, helping more than 700 leaders to acquire great leadership skills.
I actually had the opportunity to work on Evan's team for a few years. And one of the moments I remember was when these consultants came in to orchestrate our company-wide survey. They had analyzed the survey results and we're debriefing our whole HR department at a meeting. We had about a hundred people there. And one of the big themes was complaints about many of the leaders - except, that is, for one particular leader who stood out. And the consultants purposefully didn't mention the name of this particular leader. They said that this leader's name came up over and over again across the whole HR organization, as an ideal leader who everyone respected and trusted and loved. Naturally the group begged and pleaded to know who that leader was. And, uh, I'll just stop there because I don't want to embarrass Evan.
So again, welcome Evan.
Evan Pincus: Well, thanks Tyler, and thanks for that introduction as well.
Tyler Small: It was such a pleasure, such an exhilarating, wonderful time working with you at WGU. Tell us a bit about your own professional journey with emotional intelligence. I've noticed that you've developed your emotional intelligence to the point where you have an endless number of requests for your advice, many at the C level of large organizations. And there are a great number of really intelligent, really important people wanting your time. How did you do that?
Evan Pincus: Well, um, I think I did that because I made a lot of mistakes. And like many people, I have learned and try every day to learn from those mistakes. I think early on for me, when I first got into, you know, kind of large organizations, what I found out was that just being smart, being bright, being talented, being skilled, wasn't really a differentiator. Um, most everyone that I worked with was really smart, was really bright, was driven. And the folks who I saw advancing were those that really had developed their emotional intelligence. And that really stood out to me as a differentiator.
And to me, emotional intelligence, it's a journey, not a destination. And I apologize for, you know, the corny, uh, analogy. I'm a big believer that it's a growth mindset and it's something that can be improved every single day. And I hope that I continue to improve. And that's often what I talk with people about, um, when it's specific to emotional intelligence: what are some of the little things that they can do to improve. Because you're never going to be emotionally intelligent. You can work on becoming more emotionally intelligent.
Tyler Small: I really love that. And, as you know, the name of the podcast is Hacking Emotional Intelligence. So people understand that, Hey, it's a journey. Being on your team, I think I saw that. And I've been rereading this book called Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg at Stanford.
And he really emphasizes: Hey, if you're trying to make a big change, start with these little tiny things. I think that's been just so practical in my experience.
Evan Pincus: Yeah. I, I really think it's about, um, about little things that you can do. Um, you're not gonna, you know, if you rate yourself or others rate you as a three on your EQ, it's not like the next day you're gonna wake up and be a seven.
So what are some of the little things that you can do to slowly creep up? Cause the difference between, you know, going from a three to a five can be massive where I think, you know, in certain aspects we wish we could be a 10 at everything. And I don't think that's the goal with EQ. I think it's about little tweaks that we can do to become a better, more understanding, empathetic human.
Tyler Small: Beautiful. Beautifully said. Can I ask you a really personal question?
Evan Pincus: Sure.
Tyler Small: I think you told me once that you naturally feel a low level of attachment for people. However, I felt a great deal of authentic care from you. And I've seen you exhibit this across, across the board for other people.
And you seem to be extremely inclusive and caring. How do you manage this?
Evan Pincus: Well, I think for me, I care about humans and that is something that's near and dear to me. And I always have a job to do. And I think, to me, I would really like any interaction that I have with another human, for that to be a positive interaction, if it can.
Um, now that doesn't mean that I'm, you know, uh, batting a thousand, so to speak. Uh, I have my slip-ups and mistakes just like everyone else; I probably have more than most. And I'm always really looking at, how can I do better? And I, I want to kind of do the best that I can. And I think with any situation, regardless of the task, you can probably accomplish the task while exhibiting care for other individuals.
So it's something that's important to me as a person. It's important to me as a leader. It's important to me as an employee. It's important to me as a family member. And I always try to really think about the human impact of anything that I'm going to do.
Tyler Small: I look at some people and, like, their whole way of being is about they're super motivated by connecting with other people and feeling this super deep sense of attachment. But I don't feel like my personality lends itself to that as some, as some people do. Hearing you describe this as sort of as a process of like, it is a value of yours and that you engage in a way that you're striving to create a positive experience for the person, that's really enlightening to me.
Evan Pincus: Definitely.
Tyler Small: So Evan, next question. There's a lot of fluffy, squishy stuff out there about leadership skills and emotional intelligence. And I was really curious, what are some of the rules of thumb that you use to filter out some of the fluff when guiding your team as they create leadership development experiences for thousands of employees at Western Governors University?
Evan Pincus: Yeah. That's a great question, Tyler. Um, there, I think it's really important that you do, you know, filter out that fluff, so to speak, because it's so important, if you're tasked with building leadership development at an organization, you want to have that credibility. So if you, if you go too far into, you know, what, what, you know, is described as fluff. Some people may call it, um... there are a whole host of things they may call it. You, you want to keep that, that credibility. So for me, I don't know if I have rules of thumb per se, and I'm always looking at, how can we position anything that we're doing to help the organization.
So at Western Governors University, what we do is we provide education to folks in a different format, and that education can change the lives of individual students and their families. So if we're going to put forth any concept in a leadership development experience, I would ask the question to our creators who are developing this: can we understand, can we explain how this, whether it's a skill, whether it's a mindset, a competency, a concept, how can this help students? Right. So if we're helping our leaders who are going to help the leaders underneath them, and it's going to help our faculty, our staff, and it will help students, then it's something there's going to be a lot of buy-in.
If it isn't going to benefit our employees and there's not going to be any downstream impacts, that's something I would stay away from. So certain things, um, might be entertaining. They may be fun. Is that going to make anyone better at what they do? Are they going to be better at their job? Is that individual going to be a better leader? If I can't see that, if my employees can't explain that to me, if no one can draw that map of how this is ultimately making at our organization our students - or at another organization, the customer - if that's not creating positive value, then that's something that I would stay away from.
I wish I had some, you know, really quick assessment where I could say: no, this content doesn't go in, this content does. And sometimes, you know, we'll try something, we'll see, does this resonate? Does this help? Does this create an impact? And if it does, then maybe we'll do more of it. If it doesn't work, then it's something that we'll kind of peel back. And I think with content and leadership development, those are revolving door decisions. They're not a closed door, so you can try something if it works, could do it again. If it doesn't work, we'll go into a new direction.
Tyler Small: I love the revolving door. It makes it easier to have that growth mindset and to be able to make mistakes.
Evan Pincus: Absolutely. And I wouldn't say that we're a hundred percent. I don't think any leadership development curriculum is 100%. A really smart individual who I respect immensely told me something along the lines of all models are wrong and some are useful. And I think with leadership development, any leadership development experience, there's going to be concepts that are going to be useful for an individual. There will be concepts that may not be helpful. So I'm not one of the believers that, here's the exact curriculum, here's a script of how to be a leader. Here's how you are emotionally intelligent and just replicate this over and over. I don't think that's how most humans work. And I think it's a collection of different experiences, different skills that someone has; leveraging those almost as tools in the toolbox. And you know, sometimes you need a nail gun. Other times you need a circular saw and you can't really substitute the circular saw with the nail gun. So that's really where I look to our team, is how can we add as many tools in that metaphorical toolbox to our leaders so they can leverage them when the time and situation presents itself.
Tyler Small: I remember having a conversation with you and it was, we were going over a communication that I had written - some kind of thing for our leaders. I had provided this, this suggestion as, here, see this. And you helped me adapt the language to meet, I think, the guideline that you just gave of making it a suggestion, a consideration. And so now I've taken that to heart. And a lot of times - in the, in the programs I'm writing and the material I create - I often say, consider, consider saying something like this or this; and whenever I can giving multiple options so that people can kind of see the trend or the gist of the idea, and then apply that in a way that works best for them and their situation.
Evan Pincus: I think it's important and I just go back to interacting with humans, interacting with other people. Very few folks like to be told, this is what you need to do - almost as giving commands or orders. There's very few situations where that works out well. Now, are there situations, can we brainstorm dozens of them? I'm sure. And I would just say, in general, most people do not like being told here's what you have to do. So just the language shift of being asked; here's some considerations for further learning... can have a major impact on how people interpret that message and those recommendations.
And more often than not, we're recommending, we're providing additional learning, as opposed to saying you must do this.
Tyler Small: Yeah. And I think on the flip side of that is what you kind of mentioned before with asking that question: How does this help the audience to accomplish X, Y, or Z? I also recall an experience where I showed you a video that I had tracked down. I was curating this library of videos. There was a video they had done on a specific topic. And I was, I was running this by you - it was early in the process - to get, uh, like the first three or something started. And, uh, and the video was on topic. It was an expert in the industry. It was well-produced. And I think you said, how does this, you know, you asked that exact question, how, how does this benefit our students? How does this help our employees? And it was, it wasn't clear. And I realized, oh wow, this doesn't pass the “fluff test.” I don't know if I was thinking in those terms at the time; but it certainly didn't. And it helped me calibrate my gauge for that. And we found several others that had, instead of kind of saying here, here are some general ideas, some fluffy information that maybe makes you feel good, but it wasn't actionable. So the others that we found were very actionable. There's very specific things that the people could do without going so far as to say, you must do this exactly and say this specific thing.
Evan Pincus: Yeah. I think it's always going to be a balance, and folks will give you latitude until they won't. To me, it's really important that if we're vetting something that's third party, we say this is something that we recommend that's useful, I really hope that for most of the viewers or participants or consumers of that content, it is useful. Because there's only so many times someone's going to come and say, yeah, that was entertaining, and not useful. And I think that's really important, and I've seen some really great leadership development folks create really memorable, really entertaining, really exciting experiences, and have struggled for it to be useful or to change something or create an impact. So for me, I would rather have a few impactful resources that you can give someone to make them better; as opposed to quite a few interesting or fascinating resources that folks are, are amused and they don't really help them in their job or in their development in becoming a better leader, a better person, a better employee.
Tyler Small: I love that. Next question, Evan: What advice in particular would you give to our hardworking listeners out there who are trying to hack their own emotional intelligence?
Evan Pincus: That's a great question. And there's so many resources on emotional intelligence. I feel just in the last 10 years, it's become such a more accepted science, so to speak where, you know, 10 years ago it seemed there was this argument for, is it real, does it exist? Where we're now, not only is it real and it does exist. There's lots of different resources.
I think my advice though, if someone is trying to hack their own emotional intelligence, is start small, like we talked about earlier. Find something that you can work on that's really specific. I think it's, it's really hard to say, I'm just going to get better. If someone said that to me, I'd say, what are you going to get better at? When I think about development goals, uh, I know this may come contrary to certain models out there. Some people are all about focusing on their strengths. Others are focusing on their largest deficits or areas of opportunity because there's the biggest delta. I say, go with both; find something you're really good at on the EQ spectrum. And if you examine and really look at the different components and models of EQ, I bet for most people there's something they're good at; try to do more of that good thing. Conversely, also look at an area where you really struggle. Maybe it's social control and in large settings you blurt things out before thinking about that. Okay. I'm going to really try to limit that. And I'm really good at saying “hi” to people and addressing them by their name. Like, “Hello, Tyler, how are you?” You know, whatever that is, I would say, work on one strength, one area of opportunity. Start really small, really specific. And try to get better. As you can kind of check something off the list and, and you've made that strength, a greater strength, and maybe you've made that area of opportunity - it's no longer your biggest area of opportunity. Then set a different goal.
I really think, um, small goals that you have the ability to successfully complete and leverage, are going to be more impactful than just saying, I'm going to get better at everything. I'll read a dozen books on emotional intelligence. I would rather someone read one book or watch one video and put something into action, as opposed to trying to learn everything there is to learn in a short amount of time. It's really a journey and it's something that we're always looking to improve - myself included. No one has ever reached the pinnacle of EQ. I think if someone has that belief, uh, they probably have quite a bit more introspective learning to do.
Tyler Small: Thank you for that. And Evan, do you have time for a bonus question?
Evan Pincus: Sure.
Tyler Small: All right, Evan... This is a little bit less related to the theme of our conversation here. But since we have time for a bonus question: What advice would you give to our listeners who may be trying to decide whether to stay where they are with their current role, with the current job; or whether to move on to another organization?
Evan Pincus: Wow. That's a really good question. And everyone's situation is unique. So I want to just address that. I'm going to talk in big generalities here, and I think it's important for every individual to really understand your situation. There's no two humans that are in the exact same situation and circumstance.
So the first thing that I would have any of your listeners do is really understand why. Why are they considering leaving the job? Is it that they're looking to do different types of work? Are they looking for different compensation? Are they looking to relocate? Are they looking to have a different leader? What is the motivation? Is it simply curiosity?
So, what I would say in general is I would like to look at a career as, you know... if we look at that as a map, where do you want to end up? So in Google Maps, you have your current location and where's that destination. And what I would have any person who's debating this is, where do they want to be long-term; and is your current role helping you get there? Now sometimes when you make a career change, it may not be a completely linear or vertical progression. It may not be, I'll get another job. I'll get more money. I'll have more responsibility. Sometimes if someone's really looking to change the work that they're doing, you may have to make a lateral move. You may have to go in a different discipline. You may have to take a step back. You may make less money. You may have less responsibilities. Um, and, and really, I think it's so unique to the individual on what is going to provide them the satisfaction in life.
And I think it can be really important to understand that we all - maybe 99.9% of people - we all have a job fundamentally because we need a paycheck. So I wouldn't recommend people, if you're not happy in your current role, just quit your job. I'm not saying that. And if, if you're not happy with what you are doing, and you're not satisfied with the current work, I would think about not necessarily what is the next thing you want to do. But try to zoom out a little bit and think, where do you want to be in three years? Where do you want to be in five years? Where could you envision yourself down the road? And what is the right step to put yourself in position to do that? Sometimes we need different skills, competencies, maybe a credential in order to make that change happen. But those are some of the questions that I would ask.
So ultimately my advice for anyone in that situation is really understand the "why" you have these feelings of you're considering leaving your role. Where would you like to be long-term? And long-term is different for different people. It may be six months for someone; it may be, you know, six years for another. But understand it, and how can you find the positions that are going to help you get to where you want to be.
Tyler Small: I remember you shared with me one time, an experience you had looking at, an opportunity that you were evaluating. You asked someone you knew for some advice and they helped you see that your motivation for making that change - this was very early in your career and it was just for that small amount of increasing in your income; and really the increase wasn't that large; and it would have been a slightly left turn from where you really wanted to be. And so you decided not to take the opportunity, is that, am I telling that story correctly?
Evan Pincus: Yeah, Tyler. And I think with that, especially for folks maybe earlier on in the career journey... Now, it could be anyone; I think this impacts folks that are earlier in the journey more often. Sometimes it's that shiny object syndrome. There's a new job and it pays more than your current job and who cares about this, that or the other. It pays more. And I may be able to, if I had this new job, I may be able to buy that new thing, or I may be able to pay off this debt. And those are important things - AND it really needs to be balanced with, how does that fit into the long-term?
Now, again, I appreciate and respect that all of us have to eat. And if you're in a situation where we're talking, it is going to change your life and you don't have enough money to sustain and care for yourself and your family, yeah, you're going to take that job. And if it's not that type of decision, um, I think many people would be well-served to not necessarily get the first opportunity, but really try and be a little bit more strategic in their career, if they're in a situation where that's possible. I look at it like a purchase. I know for me, I do a ton of reviews; if I'm going to buy a product, I want to learn about it. I want to make sure it has good reviews and it's going to meet the need for me. And I would say to try to do the same with any job. And I'm not just saying, you know, find reviews on the job, but understand is this the right job for this stage or part of your journey. In this season of life, is it going to help get to that destination? Or is it a sidetrack?
So I guess what I'm saying, Tyler, is the first job offer may not be the right job offer in some situations. It can be hard to be patient when looking for a job, especially if you're looking to leave. And just really try to put some thought into it. And I know oftentimes we can be blinded by the compensation and there's a lot more factors to life satisfaction than just money.
Tyler Small: Amen to that. Well, Evan, our time is about up. Do you have anything else you'd like to share with our audience?
Evan Pincus: Well, I'd like to say thank you for having me, first off. And thanks to the audience that's tuned in to listen to this. I would just encourage everyone to find something, um, that they want to learn more about and learn, and practice and do. Uh, I think emotional intelligence is one of the most important things to help anyone be successful, regardless of where that success or what that success looks like. So if they're tuning into this, I would say that they're probably looking to start on that journey or continue on that journey and hang in there. Good luck to you. There's so many great resources, and I think that your audience will find that improving their EQ can help them in so many more ways than they can even imagine. So, uh, just keep, uh, keep on trucking and thanks again for having me on today, Tyler. It's been great to catch up.
Tyler Small: Thank you! Thank you, Evan. Thank you for spending the time with us and for your wonderful advice.
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